Former chairman of the defunct Transition Implementation Committee, TIC during the late Gen. Sani Abacha administration, Justice Mamman Nasir has asked members of the Northern Elders Forum not to divide Nigeria by emphasizing positions that tended to make northerners as the only people in Nigeria. Nasir,
an octogenarian and former Court of Appeal president also pleaded with members of the Independent People of Biafra, IPOB and MASSOB to jettison the idea of seceding from Nigeria, urging them to think of the interest of the nation, their children and grandchildren.
According to him, Nigerians should forget about the Northern Elders Forum and be wary of the kind of personalities they chose as leaders, warning that unless the views expressed by such leaders were supported by very many of the responsible citizens, it should not be taken seriously. Speaking in an interview with Sunday Sun, Nasir blamed Nigeria’s woes on lack of good leadership and spoke of his frustrations during the Abacha regime, disclosing that those who killed Abacha were those who also killed Chief Moshood Abiola, the acclaimed winner of the June 12, 1993 presidential election.
As the President of the Court of Appeal whose tenure lasted for a long time, I think it is pertinent to…
(Cuts in) We started the court in 1975 and Justice Dan Ibekwe died in 1978 and I took over until 1992. Then I retired at an early age, so to speak and I went back to the village. That’s where I am now.
In what state did you leave the judiciary?
At that time as far as our courts were concerned, we were really independent. I am not saying we were beyond anybody approaching us, but I doubt if anybody ever succeeded in destroying our oneness. Up till the time I left, we were very proud of ourselves. People tried; one or two senior people tried but failed and some of them later became my best friends. Even though they lost their cases, they became my friends later. They used to come to this very house for consultations even when I was no longer in the judiciary. They came for consultations in Law, politics and so on. So as far as I am concerned, I did not leave any enemy because he lost a case, two cases I knew about. They were not able to convince anybody. They tried in court and failed. That was the end of those cases. But the main difference is that there were some elements of the Federal Government that assisted even the judiciary. If you have a strong government, every arm would be stronger automatically. If you fail at the top, gradually it would affect all other arms of government. You can see now when we are talking of corruption, it is so far still within the very arms that formed the government. That corruption is going round… I am not talking of individual business people. We are talking of people in government, in one of the arms of government, National Assembly, the executive and judiciary; only those three are in issue now and that was the effect in my view, of a sort of weak management at the top.
You talked about the independence of the judiciary at that time
At the time we were in the judiciary, anybody who comes and attempts to bribe the judiciary, I believe he would fail. It is not only me. Any member of the court at that time, he would fail because if anything happened to somebody else, he would tell me. We were living really as brothers and we never at the time had disagreements. So even with cases, we were all aware of cases going on. So if you disappeared for one minute, somebody else can step in. That was really a sort of brotherhood.
So how did you feel when you heard that Supreme Court Judges were arrested for corruption?
I am a human being. I have a religion. So anything is possible. I don’t see them really different from other Nigerians. It was not encouraging. It was not nice, but it is not impossible. And since it is part of human society, anything can happen anywhere. But it is a pity that it has even got to the top because that is the worst part of it. But I think we have not learnt lessons. I was telling somebody today that if we can get the press and the judiciary to team up, there can be a lot of difference in the quality and even in the administration of justice, in the sense that both the press and the judiciary will be honest. And if we do our best, everybody will listen. The other two arms will think the press is supporting the judiciary. So they may be careful. But even though I am unhappy, I am thinking of what do you do for tomorrow. This has happened. We cannot delete it from our history. It has happened. It was not impossible. But what the judiciary should do in my view is to think more of how do we build the future including protective decisions so that we train our people. I have always taken more interest in continuing education in the judiciary. In fact, I was a party to the establishment of the institute we have now in Lagos where we train judges. So I believe we can improve our training and that will include moral education. It is not good enough that you know law, but that you are also honest. Two days ago, there was a call to the bar. There were few cases of doubtful cases. If you have clean family, your son can go anywhere, he would still be clean.
I need your assessment of the judiciary. Do you think the judiciary has fared well enough?
In my view it has done better than the other two arms. Sit and analyze how much money has been wasted through corruption in the other two arms in comparison to the judiciary. After all, who brought the money to the judiciary? But we need not waste time on that. We need to sit and tell the three arms of government that we are building a nation and that we need national honesty. This national honesty can make all the difference in any department.
There are many people advocating for changes in the NJC. They want the powers of appointment conferred on the CJN to appoint judges into the body to be removed. They also want the power to appoint the CJN removed from the president. What do you think?
You see, take a very democratic country with a lot of complications like India. If you take it, you will see that they are still practicing, in many respects, what looks more like the English practice, not America. In the appointment of Judges, the president has powers to appoint some of them in consultation…there were more consultations. Even the president could appoint whoever he wants and there are issues whether he must consult the Chief Justice. If there are objections from a particular group, that person must be dropped. If you take the Indian system, if there are delays in some cases, they used to refuse those ones. If you have so many cases, the Chief Justice will be in a position to appoint temporary Justices in consultation with the president, not him alone so that they can dispose of all pending cases. And the real issue honestly is leadership. Are we prepared to be honest? It’s no use accusing a particular individual in a three arms government. Indeed, Federal Government means involving the three arms. Each one is just a part of the government. So, if we can get good leadership, it would make all the difference. After all, we have been teasing our political leaders. We are saying, for example Dr. Okpara had to go back to Ireland to clean his degree to come back and practice Medicine. But he did not amass wealth. Now, take the Premier of Northern Nigeria, Sardauna of Sokoto. Show me his house here. Show me the one he built by stealing. When that tall building was being built, I used to go with him. People thought it was his house. But it was government. Every other day, he would go and inspect the building. Now we have question of leadership and this leadership applies to all.
As the Chairman of the Transition Implementation Committee, TIC under the Late Gen. Sani Abacha administration, what were your frustrations?
You see, even at state level here, during Abba Kyari’s regime, I was the chairman of a committee which supervised the implementation of all the works which government gave. Membership included very senior people. So, we will go round. When it came to his administration, he wanted me to implement everything that was agreed to properly. So that implementation committee was important. In fact, one day I was on tour in another state, somebody came claiming to have come from Abuja. He told the local election officer what he should do. It so happened that I was there. I asked him: who is that man? He said he is from headquarters. I said okay tell him I am not going to do it because I know he must be telling a lie. He said he wanted to discuss with me. I told him I am busy now I can’t discuss with you. Then the person who ought to have it came and complained to me that they want to do this and that. I said no. Go and meet him. Tell him the whole truth, you will get good decision. If you start lying, I am not sure you will win. Tell him the whole truth. He did. He went and he wanted a particular area to be deleted so that he would lose. So I said forget it. Our main problem is honesty. Take the present situation as a very important stepping stone for building a better future. What can we do? How do we do it? Where do we start from? What do we aim at? If you read English history, England, London in particular became the most important business centre in the world. Part of the reason was the honesty of their judiciary including arbitration. So German and French were usually at loggerheads and then they will say go to London and have arbitration agreement. So when they go, London will accept it. That quality of being fair and honest made them to succeed for many businesses with some links with London just because they were sure to get good judgement and arbitration. I don’t know what they are doing now.
We asked of your frustrations while serving as Chairman of the TIC under late Gen. Sani Abacha?
Implementation means there were decisions which each ministry implements. Our responsibility was to go and see whether they are doing it. One person with a minister refused to listen to me. I said I am sorry I have a duty to do. He too said he has a duty to do. So I reported to Abacha. Immediately Abacha called him and said you either tell him what he wants to know or you resign. So, I had all the encouragements. But that gave me the encouragement to be honest. If you are all that much supported then you dare not lie because even at that level, we are prepared to lie. And even at any time you can think of. There were occasions when even security officers would send some particular decisions to our staff and we will tell them to send it back. In implementation, you find it easy to tell me what you have done. If you are building, tell me what you have built. If you have bought something for the hospital, show me what you have bought. How many doctors have you trained? How many have you hired? That’s implementation. The same applies to Engineering, any department. So, during Abacha’s time, we had freedom to tell each and every one of them to be careful. After all, I recommended at least five of the ministers from the Constitutional Conference. To me, they were helping to give leadership to the others. If you don’t do that you find one minister believing that he is too strong and then you cannot implement. This implementation is like collecting evidences to write a decision.
Would you say there is a basis to compare the Abacha administration and the current one?
No. I cannot make comparison. What I know is what I was told to do. We are entitled to do it the best way we could. Abacha never influenced us to take a particular decision. We take the decisions and tell him. So to that extent, he gave us the opportunity to serve. So to me he was very honest in that. We must take responsibility and we did.
The comparison we want you to make is in respect of styles of governance.
Abacha was trying to rule as if he was part and parcel of the First Republic. That’s one of the reasons to me Gen. Gowon succeeded because he followed the footsteps of the leaders of the First Republic. And that made him to have consultations. He would ask us. And both Gowon and Sani would ask us in addition to asking the governors at the Supreme Military Council. They would ask us our opinion. That made all the difference. And that made it easier for them. For example, after the government, there was this thing against Abacha. After he had left, the family was being persecuted. So the president signed a sort of law that I hereby assign my powers under so and so decree to him. But what he didn’t know was that the power has left the military. They have deleted that law. So one day when they were in session, somebody came protecting me. Alas they have brought empty delegates.
So the English lawyer went in search of the law and they found we were correct. You know what happened at the end of the day, there was a settlement. The government lawyer suggested that they should collect what they know. This one is for the Federal Government. This one is for the lawyers on both sides. This one, whatever it is, is left for the family. What I heard was people shouting that they have collected Abacha’s property when there was virtually no such property. But there was that agreement initiated by the government’s lawyer. But what Sani did was that he was able to pay debts. And anything against government outside, he was able to solve it. During his time, we were not indebted to anybody. We were not harassed. So to that extent, he succeeded very well. But that gave him a group of serious enemies, including foreign countries. The very people who killed him also killed Abiola. The very people that killed him also killed Abiola. It so happened both of them were my friends; my friends in the sense of working because Abacha, to me, was a junior person. But Abiola was closer to my age.
From your description of Abacha, it would seem he was an honest man. But they alleged that he looted the nation’s treasury. What’s your reaction to that?
As far as I am concerned, in all the issues we were involved, I think he was very reasonable and very strong and the record is there in relation to Nigeria’s external relations with other people. The record is there. They did very well and we paid all debts. We were not indebted to anybody. In fact, he left money. Even some of the soldiers who were governors were very disciplined and they obeyed orders which they themselves gave. That helped.
It would seem that more Nigerians, including those who asked for a Nigerian president of northern extraction are getting frustrated with the Buhari administration. In fact, the
Northern Elders Forum spoke about hunger in the land in one of their fora. Do you share their view?
You see, when there was election and the president’s party won the election, this has gone beyond the North. It has gone to three-quarters of Nigerians, if not more. It is an issue of people who were dissatisfied. The way I will put it is that people were collectively and individually praying to God to solve this problem for us and He gave solution by changing the government in power. What happened for the first time in Nigeria’s political history, there was very good, honest unity between the West and the North. Before then, Federal Governments were being formed by the North and the East, but this time around, it was the other way round. To me, that was what they chose that these two big teams should team up. If they team up, then the only way we can solve the problem is implementation. So, to me, I don’t want anybody to feel that he is not wanted. For example, personally I was not happy that part of the East was not a party and we are insisting on issues which, honestly, we should encourage them not to. The issue of Biafra, to me, particularly from that area in comparison with the number of their brothers and sisters up North here or in the West, honestly, what do they need? Are they going alone? Or are they going with people in the Niger-Delta? Are the people in the Niger-Delta willing to follow them? Are they still not thinking of what happened after the plebiscite when Southern Cameroun left Nigeria? All these, to me, if we are honest, we should encourage our brothers and sisters in the East that please, they have a lot to gain by being Nigerians. See what you are doing, see where you are and be honest in advising the ordinary man. It is as simple as that.
Do you share the view once expressed by the Ango Abdullahi led Northern Elders Forum that there is hunger in the land?
No. Forget any forum. See what government is doing. Myself, Ango Abdullahi, we are individuals in Nigeria. Whatever views we have, unless it is supported by very many of the responsible citizens, it carries no weight. For example, that view was not recorded at that particular conference. The report came later. So, I don’t want to accuse anybody. What I want is that we should be careful when we call a meeting and what we tell people after the meeting. We should be careful after we give leadership. By the time you call yourselves Northern elders, there was a Northern Elders Forum before which was abolished and Arewa Consultative Forum, ACF was formed. If you look at it that way, where is this new Northern Elders Forum? What is important is: what are we doing we that are called senior citizens to assist this particular government? And the only way, to me, to assist this government is honestly to be honest because this government said it is fighting corruption. Corruption is simply dishonesty and any dishonesty is as bad. So, what do we have to do? Do not emphasise a compromising position as if we are the only people. Do not divide the North with the other part of the federation. Even in today’s newspapers, some of the people I saw there are my friends, Edwin Clark and so on. To me, they are my friends. I can stop them from saying something which I believe is wrong. So as far as I am concerned, I try to show you what is good for the people and the North, equally as I will show you what is good for the people in any other part of the federation.
Let’s talk about agitations from the southern flank of Nigeria. Would you agree with those who are saying that the current agitations in the Niger-Delta and the South-east as represented by the IPOB and MASSOB are motivated by the same situation that gave rise to the unfortunate war almost 50 years ago?
What I want…I am seriously appealing to the leaders in the East; please think seriously in the interest of Nigeria, our children and grandchildren. All these things which are being said, where I am sitting, cannot be confirmed. But what happened? This very group that was in government before is now in opposition. Are we not like Gambia today because Gambia changed government recently? So my appeal to Biafra is: please think more seriously about our nation, children and grandchildren. I want people to be honest and practical in the interest of this nation. And this nation means all of us here, any other Nigerian, our children and grandchildren. Don’t think you can convincingly… no. Please. All our leaders when they were founding Nigeria agreed that there should be a Nigeria. What went wrong? Read everything. Read even our National Anthem. Read the preambles of our constitutions. Read them and you will see that there was agreement by our leadership as agreement about our unity. Let them not mind that at one time or another, one person may offend another. But what do we do? What is our solution? If the solution is if you offend me I take my people and leave the country, where do we go to?
Would you say the struggle for an independent country is not justified?
As far as I am concerned, I am appealing to all those in Biafra that please think seriously about the interest of all of us, we Nigerians. Particularly, I am appealing to the senior people.
The people are alleging injustice…
(Cuts in) Let them think about it. Think and let them do what they think is right because do you want to go back to another civil war? How do you do it? How do you approach it? Do you confiscate property? What do you do? After the civil war, in the North here, we kept all the Igbo property and appointed management. When they came back we gave them back their property, including money collected as rent. Was that a sign of hatred? We have to be very careful. If we want to be honest, let us be honest. If we want to insist on negatives, then another issue is there, but I am not going to be part of negatives.
To some Igbo, the Federal Government is using the continued detention of Nnamdi Kanu, the leader of those struggling for Biafra as a bait to kill more Igbo and…
There is somebody from Zaria being detained. So that should not be an issue for state creation. There is somebody from Zaria being detained. If you say the detention is wrong, go to court.
Do you have words of advice for President Muhammadu Buhari?
I am starting with you, the Nigerian press. Let us be very honest. Let us help the head of this government to implement all the things which we saw them starting. Do not look at what they are doing simply on the issue of collecting money from corrupt people. Think of what they are doing as a government. I am not advising Buhari on any issue. I am advising his government. Continue with your honesty. It is as simple as that. And I am appealing to all of us, please what brought these people is a very serious problem. So, please, let us all team up to see what we can do to help our country. And to the people of the East, please we love you and Nigeria. If you like you can laugh at me. But I don’t want you to cry.
