I regret not laying down my life to get third term for Obasanjo – Ibrahim Mantu

It is now about nine years since Ibrahim Mantu, a member of the Board of Trustees of the Peoples Democratic Party, left office as deputy president of the Nigerian senate. During his tenure, Mr. Mantu was one of the most powerful politicians in the land, and was regularly described as the most trusted henchman of former President Olusegun Obasanjo in the Senate.

After he was defeated by a little known politician in 2007, Mr. Mantu slipped into political obscurity, building his business and strengthening his relationship with God, he says.

In this interview with PREMIUM TIMES’ Musikilu Mojeed and Adebayo Hassan, Mr. Mantu spoke about a wide range of issues, including his role in the controversial third term bid of former President Obasanjo. Sam Akpe, a veteran National Assembly reporter and editor facilitated the interview.

This is the first part of the interview. It is vintage Ibrahim Mantu, and it’s a must-read.

Excerpt:

PT: How has it been for you since you left office as the Deputy Senate President?

Mantu: I can say it has been rough and smooth. Rough in the sense that when you are out of office, the challenges of life can become more difficult. And those who benefit from you or are dependent on you don’t see difference between when you are in office and out of it as long as you still look ok, dress well, use good car and stay in the same house as I happen to do. They don’t seem to understand that anything has changed at all. So if you gave somebody N50 before and then give him N20 now, they will say you have now become stingy and so on.

But the smooth side of it is that one has got time to reflect on the past and see where one must have gone wrong while in office. One thinks of what one should have done differently because as you mature in life, your values about life changes. Time changes everything. So, the smooth side of it is that there is now more peace of mind. You sleep well. You determine how many hours you want to sleep and how many hours you want to work.

For me as a person, I may say the greatest joy I have is the fact that I have more time to be closer to my creator. I have time to pray, read the Holy Book and the rest. This time around, I have so much time to read the scripture; practice my religion and visit the holy land, sometimes three times in a year which was not possible before. So this time is the sweetest because when you are closer to God, and you have peace.

PT: You talked about the continuous expectation, especially by those who depended on you while you were in office. It might be they still expect you to dish out patronage because of the expectation that politicians steal so much money to last them a life time?

Mantu: It is a very unfortunate perception here because holding public office is synonymous with making money. That’s why I said when they appoint you minister of information, minister of science and technology where there is no patronage to extend or much money to access, people will say how I wish he was minister of Abuja, finance or works.

People have equated occupying political office with making money, and, this is because of the corruption in our system. People don’t see offering selfless service as a unique opportunity given to you by God and your country to excel and write your name in gold. They see it as a means of enriching themselves and making lots of money.

Even when you are out of office, they still believe you must have taken so much money. But like I said, when I was in office, I had my allowances, entitlements and the rest of them, so I could actually be more generous with people when I was in office than when I am out of office. But right now, and it may interest you to know that the position of presiding officer in the Senate or House of Representatives, as high as it is, we don’t enjoy any pension as of now. But a former governor or deputy governor enjoys his pension and other entitlements, we don’t have that one.

So, it is true that people equate sensitive political office as a way of automatically making money. I don’t blame them because somebody will be appointed a minister or elected to the Senate or House of Reps. He might have had a car that you will have to push to start, but after three months, the car will become the latest BMW or Mercedez Benz and he will have the best house in the village. So, people will say so this thing is so lucrative. It is the corruption in the system that gives that kind of perception that when you are given an appointment, it is automatically synonymous with making money.

PT: Now, you say as you age, your value changes and you begin to reflect. Do you want to reflect on your time in office? What would you have done differently?

Mantu: Well, if I were in office today, I would have actually concentrated more on sponsoring bills that would actually fight corruption. Not fighting corruption by introducing all sorts of punitive measures but fighting corruption in a way that’s appealing to the conscience and attitude of the people. There should be a way of targeting attitudinal change. When you change attitudinally from your heart, you change permanently. But when you change because you are afraid of consequences of the offence, which means you are a changed person because of fear of committing fraud or whatever. But when you change from your heart, it’s like somebody who has become born again. Nobody needs to police you. You will just do the right thing.

Secondly, I would have targeted bills that would promote unity of this nation so that we can see ourselves first and foremost as Nigerians before we see ourselves as Akwa Ibom, Lagos or Ekiti. You know we allow tribalism and religious differences to stand between us and progress.

The truth is that it is difficult to baptize a Bayelsa man to become an Akwa Ibom man. A Fulani man will remain Fulani forever. This cannot change. So, what cannot be changed must be endured. We must find a way of living together in peace and harmony. We must also know that religion is something between you and your God. It has got nothing to do with your relationship with another man. So when it’s about issue of common interest, we should work together. Take for example, corruption or poverty does not know Hausa or Igbo man. These are areas we have to pool resources.

PT: So why did you not do these when you were in office?

Mantu: Because I was not mature enough to think the way I am thinking now and I didn’t have enough time to think about all these. When people have enough, they will think and think.

PT: You know talking about corruption. Nasir El-Rufai accused you and Senator Zwingina of demanding bribe from him for his ministerial clearance. What’s the real issue? What actually happened?

Mantu: The real story was in the open. I think you are either not in the system or just being mischievous. When the issue came up, there was a committee set up. The investigation was in the open. It was not in camera. So everybody who is interested must have known what happened? What was the outcome? At the end of the day, El-Rufai said there was a demand that he should give money but initially he said he gave money to Zwingina and I to approve him as a minister. And he said before that time, in fact in Punch, that he had evidence of how he actually gave money to Zwingina and me.

PT: The reason we asked is that it happened several years back. Maybe there were things you didn’t want to say at the time.

Mantu: Truth does not change. There was nothing I didn’t say because it was between my integrity and the people. My integrity was at stake; so, there was no way I could have held anything back. I said the truth and the truth is always constant.

PT: So what’s the relationship between you and El-Rufai today?

Mantu: Very cordial!

PT: How did you resolve the conflict?

Mantu: The committee resolved the whole matter and it was a public hearing. And the people knew exactly what happened. I don’t begrudge anybody forever. I have a forgiving heart.

PT: You and El-Rufai were Obasanjo boys at the time. It was something some of us could not understand at the time. Why would two people belonging to the camp of the president bicker over a matter like that?

Mantu: I have a different relationship with Obasanjo. The genesis of that problem was that when El-Rufai was leaving Bureau of Public Enterprises, BPE, he actually handed over to his in-law, one Tijani, and he had planned that his in-law would take over from him as DG. But I brought Julius Bala three months after El-Rufai had actually left BPE. So Julius Bala was appointed DG. So by the time he knew somebody else other than his in-law was appointed DG, he traced the emergence to me. And that was the beginning of the problem because he felt he had recommended someone and somebody else came to take over the job. So, he wanted to take his pound of flesh.

The question is if he knew what he said was true, why did he have to wait for three months before he revealed the story. If he were correct, when he came before the Senate, he would have said ‘some of you demanded money from me for approval, I don’t believe in buying this position, I believe I merit it’. He would have been a hero there and then. But he didn’t say anything. He would have said it even a week after he had been sworn in. Why did wait till after three months when that issue of BPE came up before he revealed this matter?

In fact, to be honest with you, I already contracted Rotimi Williams to go to court. But Obasanjo begged me to let the sleeping dog lie. I lost N15 million because I already paid Rotimi Williams.

PT: You had very close relationship with Obasanjo. What brought you together? What is your relationship with Obasanjo?

Mantu: You remember that in the National Assembly from 1999, nobody hated Obasanjo like I did. Nobody abused Obasanjo like I did. He was my breakfast. He was my dinner. He was my lunch. Then, by the time I became deputy president of the Senate, I had the opportunity to work closer with him because by virtue of my being a presiding officer, we met once in a week. Before, I was viewing him from a distance and he was also viewing me from a distance. But now our offices had brought us to work closely together.

Even at that time, everybody maintained his hostility. Each time it came to my point to make contribution, I would attack whatever he said. He would do same to me. We continued like that until one day he called me to his office and said “listen, in my own part of the world we respect elders and authorities. Even if you don’t like my face, you should respect my office and I am older than you.” I said “in my own part of the world too, we respect elders and authorities.” “Then, why are you not respecting me,” he asked. I then said I was sorry. He stood and embraced me warmly.

And if you asked me why I was opposed to him; it was because we wanted Chuba Okadigbo to become the President of the Senate. Obasanjo didn’t offend me as a person. I didn’t know Obasanjo, he didn’t know me. I knew him as a former head of state but I never set eyes on him until he became candidate of the PDP because it was in Jos that we did the Convention. But most of us wanted Chuba Okadigbo to become Senate President because we knew his capacity in the NPN (National Party of Nigeria) and he was a role model to some of us. He was a dashing young man and we saw him as a role model.

But overnight, they came and used all sorts of influences and Chuba was not elected the following day. You know that time we were staying at Hilton. So Anenih would just come, knock on your door and say ‘your Chuba was erratic, he slapped the President and all sorts of things’. So they worked on our colleagues and we lost that election to (Evan) Enwerem. That was the only thing Obasanjo did to me.

That was why Enwerem, may his soul rest in peace, was the saddest president ever produced by the Senate. If he took one step forward, we would make sure he took three steps backward. So, he could only last for six months. Because with the kind of attacks we were giving him, he was always looking like somebody who had lost his mind and you would never see him smile.

He was under serious mental torture because we did not allow anything for him until we brought Chuba as our President six months after. So, that was the genesis of my hatred for Obasanjo but by 2001 when I became the Deputy Senate President, we had opportunity to interact closely like I said earlier. Our relationship continued to improve and I appreciate him for who he is. Obasanjo is a nationalist. He does not care whether you are Yoruba or Igbo. Once you have something to offer, it brings you very close to him and he would use you for his objective. He does not care whether you are Christian or Muslim.

PT: And people actually knew you were Obasanjo’s henchman in the Senate. Can you specifically tell us what he used you to achieve in the National Assembly?

Mantu: Well, I can say what he used me to achieve was what the National Assembly also used me to achieve for this country. You know Obasanjo was very unpopular with the National Assembly, both Senate and House of Reps. So, when he was almost impeached and it was clear he was on his way out, I called some people in that chamber and I said we were beginning to overheat this polity and we should be careful. I didn’t want a situation where the military would come and take over. We had suffered under the military for so long. Therefore, we should not allow our emotions to becloud our objectivity so that democracy would not be scuttled. So I began to appeal to the conscience of the people and was able to scuttle the impeachment process. That was the only thing that I did that Obasanjo appreciated me for.

PT: How did he appreciate you? You know some believe he must have given you a lot of money.

Mantu: But you know Obasanjo does not part with one kobo. Even his own relatives, when they come to him, he would give them five naira or N10. So, anybody who knows Obasanjo very well will tell you Obasanjo will never buy anybody. He is not the kind of person that expresses appreciation by giving you money. Never! He could shower encomiums, call you great man and so on. But if you have something you want like I took Julius Bala to him for BPE job. When he saw that Julius Bala was the only person in Nigeria that had Ph.D. in Privatization, that was what attracted him. Then he asked me to bring the person and Julius Bala reminded him that he was the one interpreting for him in Japan. Obasanjo said “oh you were the one!” That again helped. Again, that is to tell you Obasanjo cares for merit. Once he knows you are qualified for something and you have value to add to it, he will go for you.

Scuttling the impeachment process brought me closer to Obasanjo. But many people believe I was close to Obasanjo because I was the arrowhead of the tenure elongation project, the so-called third term project. That’s absolutely not true. I have held series of press briefing in the past when the accusation against me was at its peak.

I told people not to mix my role as Chairman of the Constitution Review committee with supporting tenure elongation of Obasanjo. I was the Chairman of the committee by virtue of being Deputy Senate President. I was not the first person, it is just part of the responsibility of the office of the Deputy Senate President.

First of all, when we were going around the entire nation to collect views about the clauses we intended to amend, one of the clauses was tenure elongation. When we collected the report, many people were encouraging opposition Senators not to sign the report that was going to be presented to the Senate and House of Reps. I asked all the sub-committee chairmen, especially one that had to be with tenure elongation to swear to God if there was anywhere I talked to anybody about tenure elongation project. They said no! I asked if there was a time I asked any sub-committee chairman to write what I wanted apart from what they collected from Nigerians. There was nothing like that. And that was how all the members of the committee, both those who are for and against, signed the report because they knew the report reflected what was collected in the zones and the states.

There was no input from my part as chairman of the committee. I only collected and presented. But because those who were having a burning ambition to become President of Nigeria went to the press like you people, and the press hyped something that was not a story at all. And they made tenure elongation out of 103 clauses as if that was the alpha and omega of all the changes.

Then, at the end of the day, we ended up throwing away the baby and the bath water. So, even recently, I asked if there was anybody in the entire nation that I called to support Obasanjo’s tenure elongation project. The answer is no. But the impression was as if I were made Chairman of the Constitution Review Committee to ensure Obasanjo’s tenure elongation project scale through. Unfortunately, when the press decides to overblow something, people will believe what they read as the golden truth. But that’s not the truth because many of us sponsor you people to write what suit our interest.

PT: So in simple term, what was your role in the tenure elongation project?

Mantu: Was there any hidden role again? The role was open. I did not have any hidden agenda about tenure elongation. If I had, would I have gone to discuss it with spirits? It was human beings that I would tell. And up till now, nobody has said Mantu came to him to canvass support for tenure elongation.

PT: Did Obasanjo speak to you at the time?

Mantu: Obasanjo did not tell me to bend the rules to accommodate his interest. Never! Indeed, let me say for the benefit of hindsight, I would have expected the media to approach Obasanjo if he had interest in elongating his tenure.

The fact that he subjected himself to the constitutional procedure of doing so should have been applauded because there were presidents who would sit tight. Of course, we are aware of a president in Africa who said “I am the country, the country is me”. And he refused to go.

If Obasanjo had wanted to cause confusion, he was still the incumbent President, he could have caused a lot of problem. He could have even asked the military to stage a coup against him. Then, United Nations would come and say we should negotiate and that Obasanjo should be there for two years and all sort of things. So, at times, no matter how bad something is, let us look at it objectively and see the other side of it. In everything that appears to be bad, there is something good also there. For subjecting himself to constitutional procedure, he should be applauded. Look at Rwanda, the President subjected himself to constitutional process of elongating his tenure and he is still there because he has brought a lot of transformation to the country.

PT: But it happened in Burundi and there is crisis.

Mantu: That’s because it’s not popular there. When it is popular, there won’t be crisis. Obasanjo too, many people felt he had done something well. People mentioned countries like Singapore, South Korea and said somebody had been there for over 30 years who brought transformation.

PT: But how did the third term project fail, given that your party had majority of the States’ Houses of Assembly and majority in the National Assembly?

Mantu: It failed because most of the Senators bought into the campaign of those people who did not want Obasanjo to have another tenure because they were also very eager to take over Aso Rock. And those were the people who went to buy the press, buy everybody to hype all sorts of negativity about Obasanjo’s tenure elongation.

PT: Something dramatic happened on the floor that day. The bill died. As a seasoned politician were you expecting it to happen? Did you see the handwriting on the wall as you were heading towards that stage of voting?

Mantu: As far as I am concerned, it (the third term plot) died before that day. It died some days before because something happened that led to its death. Let me say it was not popular with a lot of Senators. Maybe those who were supporting the tenure elongation did not do their work in terms of showcasing its advantages. But the mistake people made was that it was not going to be for Obasanjo alone. It was for all Presidents because proponents of that project believe two terms of four years is not enough to make impact in terms of transforming the nation economically.

PT: As Obasanjo’s friend in the Senate, what was his attitude towards you when this effort died?

Mantu: I don’t want to say much about that. All I know is that he was not happy. But he knew a tree could not make a forest.

PT: Where did the money come from? The N50 million that was shared to lawmakers at the time.

Mantu: Those who took the money know themselves. Some of your colleagues took pictures of those who went to Central Bank with bullion vans. Did you see Mantu there?

PT: Some people thought the money came from you and that you shared the money?

Mantu: Your colleagues who were smarter than you followed them to the CBN, took the pictures? Did you see me there? I was not even in Abuja when it happened.

PT: So they didn’t bring your share?

Mantu: I was not in Abuja. Nobody said I did.

PT: Looking back now, since this is a moment of reflection for you, what would you have done differently in the case of tenure elongation project?

Mantu: The truth is if I had known Nigeria would find herself where we are today, I would have even taken the last drop of my blood to ensure it happened because it would have been in the greatest interest of the nation. We never envisaged we would be here. Since Obasanjo left, the way this country has been run up to this moment, I weep for Nigeria.